tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post37649787229059197..comments2023-10-07T11:03:10.202-05:00Comments on Autist's Corner: Who's That in the Mirror? Autism and the Developing Sense of SelfLindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10860246538349067232noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-30462917323292074342014-09-08T15:22:48.141-05:002014-09-08T15:22:48.141-05:00As a child I spend a lots of time looking at my im...As a child I spend a lots of time looking at my image in front of a mirror and repeting. That is not me, and asking Who are you. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-86070808486631168822014-05-24T09:50:57.803-05:002014-05-24T09:50:57.803-05:00"Autistic children learn quickly that their n..."Autistic children learn quickly that their natural ways of speaking, acting and relating to people are wrong, so they might well adopt a more passive social posture until they've seen enough to know what's expected of them."<br /><br />Anyone else wondering about the non-autistic children of autistic parents and/or so-called "Tiger Parents"?<br /><br />Back when http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html came out, I remember a blogger on Autisable (the website's now down) talking about how what Amy Chua demanded of Chua's daughters is so close to what comes naturally to the blogger's daughter.<br /><br />With parents like Chua was (and like my own parents were to a lesser degree - I could relate to so much of http://www.empowher.com/aspergers-syndrome/content/aspergers-parents-and-neurotypical-children even though my parents are still NT)...<br /><br />...it feels like it's the non-autistic children who learn quickly that our natural ways of speaking, acting and relating to people are wrong in our homes, so we might well adopt a more passive social posture until we've seen enough to know what's expected of us from the adults who have the most control of our lives...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-74399098977296421342013-06-25T15:51:51.930-05:002013-06-25T15:51:51.930-05:00And for the earlier Anonymous, whom I never acknow...And for the earlier Anonymous, whom I never acknowledged before --- yes, I think draping the mirrors would be a good thing. Your "visual clutter" hypothesis is definitely in accord with what I've experienced, as an autistic person who exercises and also has proprioception problems. I don't know that I've ever been helped by being able to see myself in a mirror as I've tried to master a new series of movements: the visual information is 1) reversed, which I've mentioned above confuses me, and 2) not really "actionable", if that makes any sense. What I can feel my body doing doesn't always map obviously onto what I can see in the mirror, and sometimes <i>trying</i> to see it takes up so much of my concentration that I lose focus on whatever I was trying to do in the first place.Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10860246538349067232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-79157626725425742712013-06-25T15:48:00.117-05:002013-06-25T15:48:00.117-05:00Hi, Anonymous.
That's a good point about self...Hi, Anonymous.<br /><br />That's a good point about self-awareness --- most of it is not visual --- but I think the children in this study were so young that "does the child recognize him/herself in a mirror?" is a good question to ask. I think they are talking about a much simpler concept of selfhood --- do you know that that's <i>you</i> in the mirror, and not another kid? --- than yours, which is more about knowing what kind of person you are and what's important to you. Not that kids that young aren't starting to form values, just that they're also still figuring the very basic stuff out, especially if they're developmentally disabled.Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10860246538349067232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-62528343198647585502013-06-24T04:45:56.249-05:002013-06-24T04:45:56.249-05:00The studies don't even seem scientific.
Remov...The studies don't even seem scientific.<br /><br />Remove the sticker from your face and it proves you know it's yourself? What if you think it's a copycat? What would the researchers have done if during the study a kid took off the sticker and started viewing his reflection and then said "Quit copying me!"? Would've ruined their entire study by undermining their central assumptions.<br /><br />Equating sense of self or self-awareness with the mirror test also seems very flawed. I am not my image. I am not how I look. I am what I know, what I learn, and what I do and experience. My image can form parts within these things but I don't consider it central to who I am. I see it as more of a prop or a tool. I have a feeling that even many neurotypicals even if they had the typical response as children would say similarly about themselves that they don't consider their personal identities to be all about how they look. People who only care about how they look and spend hours in front of the mirror tend to be some of the most plastic, fake people. I question their self-awareness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-4754721210505846192012-01-15T16:21:48.686-06:002012-01-15T16:21:48.686-06:00Both my young son (AS) and I (AS) have challenges ...Both my young son (AS) and I (AS) have challenges with mirrors. My own is definitely related to visual/spatial, proprioception type stuff - triggers balance problems etc. Mirrors will trigger major distraction for my son as I've noted in several of his classes (karate, yoga etc..) One of my guesses is that mirrors actually create DOUBLE "visual clutter" in a room. If I had options I would definitely choose workout rooms without any mirrors - or drape them for students with neurological differences.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-35033771485457215192011-06-18T15:24:19.875-05:002011-06-18T15:24:19.875-05:00Hi, Anon!
I don't think what you're descr...Hi, Anon!<br /><br />I don't think what you're describing sounds daft at all. I have all sorts of trouble figuring out where things are in space, too --- in particular, I've never been able to tell left from right.<br /><br />Your theory about some of the kids maybe having similar issues --- seeing their reflections and being confused by the fact that they're flipped around --- also sounds plausible. Thank you for bringing that up!<br /><br />(Also, good luck with your driving exams, if you're still pursuing that --- I can't really offer advice there, since I've determined that I just can't think fast enough, or multitask well enough, to be a safe driver.)Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10860246538349067232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-24921360930777571732011-06-17T17:45:29.874-05:002011-06-17T17:45:29.874-05:00Hi , I have ASD & have been trying to find inf...Hi , I have ASD & have been trying to find info about my inability to use mirrors in relation to a driving license. I just wondered if anyone had thought that instead of staring at themselves in the mirror , these children, like me were trying to work out what was going on in the mirror.The things in it are things I recognise but they aren't the right way round & don't move in the same way. it sounds daft but it really is that simple, eg in a car mirror, the actual image of a car coming up behind you travelling in the same directionas you, moves from the bottom to the top of the mirror,but a car going away from you also moves from the bottom to the top of the mirror , so how do you know which is which?except that one is the back of a car 7 one is the front, but most cars look much the same to me back or front , then the trees etc go from right to left as you leave them behind & run from bottom to top really fast on the one where the cars are going past you , so work that one out because I can't, no wonder we are fascinated by & stare into mirrors lol they're like a slightly different version of everything that's familiar.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-9932849801898196222011-01-21T19:22:56.619-06:002011-01-21T19:22:56.619-06:00@Ole Ferme l'Oeil - yes, feel free to translat...@Ole Ferme l'Oeil - yes, feel free to translate this into French and repost it elsewhere.Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10860246538349067232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-17456678055780308672011-01-21T08:42:52.574-06:002011-01-21T08:42:52.574-06:00Thank you for this post, I don't know if I can...Thank you for this post, I don't know if I can translate it in french one day ?<br />It show well how easily this kind of research can be problematic concerning the conclusion.<br />Definitely agree with you (and even while these children are so young I think you may have a point, if they are already on therapy and so on (with all this pression on "early interventions" it is very possible that it play a role)<br />@Leah Jane:<br />Yeah, sound familiar, mirrors are very fascinitating objects.<br />@Anonymous: This was exactly what I would have pointed out if you haden't before me, I'm not sure I would have removed it...<br />It is very troubling to see the assumptions these adults have of the atitude that a child should have in this situation... and that they keep this assumption at this point while they are workink with neuro-atypical children!<br />I would probably have asked myself why someone putted it there and what I was supposed to do.Ole Ferme l'Oeilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07632467869395776084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-48415468649397193202010-12-26T03:18:57.316-06:002010-12-26T03:18:57.316-06:00My son only in the last few months has started loo...My son only in the last few months has started looking at the person in the mirror. So very interesting to read about this.Casdokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03497897393162856190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-7644198528753557062010-10-20T16:54:06.273-05:002010-10-20T16:54:06.273-05:00Also, re: the "looking at their own faces&quo...Also, re: the "looking at their own faces". It reminds me of Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg's post on horses and "soft eyes".<br /><br />http://www.journeyswithautism.com/2010/09/05/horse-assisted-therapy-and-eye-contact/ <br /><br />I've always been able to look my boyfriend (also AS) in the eyes, although it's not that exciting to do all the time. They're like calm pools, as opposed to some people's who are moving all the time. So my own eyes aren't a big deal to look at either, they're also "soft". <br /><br />Also on a tangent, how much I rely on smell to tell how people are feeling and feel warm towards people, makes me wonder how animals that communicate mostly through smell could have a mirror self-recognition test.Cereus-Sphinxhttp://cereus-sphinx.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-45952133805030291642010-10-18T14:50:03.971-05:002010-10-18T14:50:03.971-05:00@Leah Jane - hah, that's awesome. And it looks...@Leah Jane - hah, that's awesome. And it looks to me like that's the main idea the autistic kids in this study had, too: messing with the mirror to see how it works. You could call that a sign of an impaired sense of social relatedness with the self, as the researchers did, or you could call it a sign of a robust, healthy curiosity about the physical environment! (That latter is what I'd call it, but hey, I'm biased).<br /><br />I was also a big mirror-starer in childhood and adolescence: for me, it wasn't so much curiosity about the mirror as it was a way to stare at things without my staring being noticed or commented on. I have always stared, always needed a lot of time to take in the wealth of visual details that I notice. But I was also always being told not to stare at people's faces, because it was rude. That's actually where my eye-contact avoidance comes from; originally, I stared, and because I cannot modulate my staring I avoid directing my gaze at people's faces at all. But the mirror --- there is where you can find the one human face that won't mind being stared at.<br /><br />@Amanda - good point about the Down syndrome children. They did measure "positive affect toward the self" in this study, and while the Down syndrome kids didn't differ from the typical ones in this parameter, both groups did seem very pleased to see themselves (both spent about 80-85% of their mirror time looking happy).Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10860246538349067232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-17451100489801938302010-10-18T08:20:08.413-05:002010-10-18T08:20:08.413-05:00maybe the kids with Down Syndrome haven't seen...maybe the kids with Down Syndrome haven't seen a lot of faces that look like theirs, and they were excited. :)<br /><br />seriously, thanks for posting about studies though because I suck at understanding them myself.Amanda Forest Vivianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06284158336100298682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-47955662167789413192010-10-16T11:49:40.978-05:002010-10-16T11:49:40.978-05:00I can see another problem with the sticker: some k...I can see another problem with the sticker: some kids might think it's fun to have stickers on their faces, and thus might not be inclinced to remove them. Or they may just not care about it at all: "Oh, there's a sticker on my face. Meh." It wouldn't necessarily mean that there was no self-recognition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-1343799869775654942010-10-16T11:00:56.085-05:002010-10-16T11:00:56.085-05:00I actually remember looking in the mirror as being...I actually remember looking in the mirror as being one of my favourite activities from age 5-9. It wasn't because I was self absorbed or any particular reason related to social issues. I was just interested in figuring out how the mirror worked. I spent hours looking over it with my father's magnifying glass, and actually looked behind the mirror gently, to check. It wasn't until I was older and in my first physical science class that I figured it out. <br />Makes me wonder what those researchers would have had to say about me, going after my reflection with a screwdriver.Leah Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798094383285526940noreply@blogger.com