tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post4433446863154810761..comments2023-10-07T11:03:10.202-05:00Comments on Autist's Corner: What Is Systemizing?Lindsayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10860246538349067232noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-85354772706908047702011-05-13T15:07:41.241-05:002011-05-13T15:07:41.241-05:00@meren:
Whoops! I didn't know that; the artic...@meren:<br /><br />Whoops! I didn't know that; the article said rhododendron and I don't know anything about either of those plants, so I failed to notice any mistake.Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10860246538349067232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-27156614632796926822011-04-04T23:36:49.454-05:002011-04-04T23:36:49.454-05:00@ clay--> I believe an error was made on plant ...@ clay--> I believe an error was made on plant names: rhododendron exchanged for hydrangea. similar letters/sound, but hydrangeas exhibit the phenotype differences based on soil pH as described. Rhodos have a range of colour from white through yellow to deep purples and pinks (spots and stripes too)- but never blue.merenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12739831925478300765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-17190129061185326502010-12-14T15:48:35.693-06:002010-12-14T15:48:35.693-06:00@ The Untoward Lady
I think that what SBC did with...@ The Untoward Lady<br />I think that what SBC did with the Extreme-Male Brain Theory is took a lot of stereotypes about autistics and men and noticed they matched. For instance it's a stereotype that men don't have as much "feeling" as women and there's a stereotype that autistic people don't have normal emotional reactions... therefore male brain. Of course neither are true.<br /><br />@ Lindsay<br />I think you're right in all the points you make about systematizing. I'll respond more when I get the words lined up in my head more.Cereus-Sphinxhttp://cereus.dreamwidth.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-75624749268567219382010-12-13T17:59:00.037-06:002010-12-13T17:59:00.037-06:00Basically, the thing about empathy is that it'...Basically, the thing about empathy is that it's essentially the ability of the individual to place themselves in the other's situation and imagine what they would feel and how they would react to the situation the other person is in, now. The brain literally does exactly that with regards to mirror neuron activity.<br /><br />What I'm getting at is that empathy seems to be just a form of trying to understand what is going on in your social environment by assuming everyone else feels and thinks similarly to you.<br /><br />... In other words it would seem that the exact skill that neurotypical people accuse us of not possessing (empathy) is due specifically to a quality this same researcher insists we do too much of: fail understand others are individuals with their own disparate thoughts and emotions (lack of theory of mind).The Untoward Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18035737424208837888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-90230517842978277612010-12-13T13:06:27.560-06:002010-12-13T13:06:27.560-06:00Like, the example he provides in the article, abou...Like, the example he provides in the article, about Jane and her birthday, struck me as way too simplistic.<br /><br />The relevant "operation" isn't Jane's birthday, it's whatever event *on* her birthday she's reacting to!<br /><br />Like, for this one:<br /><br />Jane --> Birthday --> Relaxes,<br /><br />and its confounding twin, <br /><br />Jane --> Birthday --> Withdraws,<br /><br />maybe Jane is an introvert, and she can relax at a small, informal gathering made up of just a few close friends, while she gets overwhelmed and withdraws at, say, a surprise party her coworkers throw for her or something.<br /><br />Knowledge of the properties of Jane, and also some more precision defining the variable "operation," would actually make it possible to describe her different reactions this way and make it intelligible.Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10860246538349067232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-89877644397586509682010-12-13T13:02:30.497-06:002010-12-13T13:02:30.497-06:00@Clay - I didn't know that about rhododendrons...@Clay - I didn't know that about rhododendrons, either. <br /><br />@The Untoward Lady - oh, you've got every right to be bitter about this theory, because it *doesn't* leave any room for autistic trans women.<br /><br />I also think one can intuit things about either systems *or* people/relationships --- he seems to think interpersonal dynamics can *only* be understood intuitively, but I think there are some interpersonal scenarios that are totally amenable to memorizing sets of rules: a mastery of formal etiquette is nothing if not a demonstration of systemizing skill!<br /><br />The one part of his explanation of why interpersonal relations cannot be deciphered systematically that I thought was true was the thing about the person changing, and needing to know about hir mental state before you can understand or predict hir behavior. I don't think this means you *need* to be able to "catch" a person's emotion contagiously, or magically read their mind (both of those being part of his definition of "empathizing") --- even if you are totally unable to perceive a person's emotion (you're faceblind, say, or like me you cannot interpret --- or most of the time even notice --- nonverbal cues), you can still know a person by 1) observing them, knowing their habits and 2) *talking* to them, and coming to know their mind and feelings that way! With that knowledge of a person to draw on, you can then imagine what a person's reaction to a given scenario might be --- even if you've got social agnosia.Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10860246538349067232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-72271418717844053882010-12-13T06:22:32.981-06:002010-12-13T06:22:32.981-06:00I think that what Barron-Cohen sees as this social...I think that what Barron-Cohen sees as this social interaction that is impossible to rationalize and requires "empathy" which apparently works by magic is simply due to his unwillingness to really investigate and look closely at what is going on in his social environment. This is a poor quality for a social scientist to have and it probably goes a long way towards explaining why his theories with regards to autism are so wanting.<br /><br />Perhaps I'm just bitter because of the amount that his pop-psych theory about autism being an "extreme male brain" have hurt me, personally, as an autistic transsexual woman. Yes, it's pop-psych and now that it's popularized people, including my own mother, decided that I could not possibly be a woman because my brain is clearly male because I'm autistic and Dr. Barron-Cohen said so.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm still convinced that this empathy thing is just social appraisal just that it's done without having to consciously think it through.The Untoward Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18035737424208837888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-2255988427088945872010-12-13T01:26:09.198-06:002010-12-13T01:26:09.198-06:00You may find this framework interesting as I would...You may find this framework interesting as I would imagine it is an expansion of systemisation but more flexibly and arbitrarily applied. <br /><br />It is relational fram theory and expands on the work of Skinner <br />http://www.ironshrink.com/articles.php?artID=071227_what_is_relational_frame_theory_one<br /><br />and <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_frame_theory<br /><br /><br />D.Diannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-530548799681444324.post-990759456440403842010-12-13T00:35:43.633-06:002010-12-13T00:35:43.633-06:00Look at this systemization:
Clay.....computer.......Look at this systemization:<br /><br />Clay.....computer.....Lindsay<br />Lindsay.....computer.....Clay<br /><br />While you were reading my blog, I was clearing my way through your words. You are <b>way</b> ahead of me, I know, but that makes me happy...for you, and for autism advocacy in general.<br /><br />I had <i>no idea</i> about the soil and resulting colors for rhododendrons. (But I could teach you a few things about "The Effects of Gamma Rays on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds".) ;-)Clayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09424036357963352399noreply@blogger.com